Sniper Balance

  • The problem that the game presents in snipers seems to be recurrent in F2P, snipers are unbalanced compared to ALL other classes. I'll show you why:


    let's put the following situation, in the red team we have 1 sniper great, in the blue team we have 1 great of smg, 1 great of LMG, and 1 great of rifle. The fact is that if the Sniper really is good, he will win the match unless they all attack in the same place at the same time, but in a normal situation 3 players will not walk away so close.


    And why does the sniper win?

    LMG is a weapon for medium-short combat, to kill you will need at least 3 or 4 HS, the Sniper at this distance needs only 1 from the waist up.


    SMG is a weapon of short distance, to kill requires 3 HS, the Sniper at this distance needs only 1 from the waist up.


    Rifles are medium-range weapons, to kill they will need 3 or 4 HS, the Sniper at this distance needs only 1 from the waist up.


    in any situation the sniper takes advantage, it does not help to nerf the scope time, has to make her kill with HS only, and take 50% of life in the body, there may not be much aligned with reality, but take 3 head shots and not die .. neither is it.

  • For me, the problem of balancing snipers is to decrease their effectiveness at close range without making them completely ineffective at range.


    The only way I can think of to achieve that is to make them wildly inaccurate while unscoped and increase the length of the scoping action to prevent quick scoping.

  • I disagree, at least in non-SnD modes. That being said, I can imagine snipers being too strong in SnD. However: All your model shows is that snipers take a single shot to kill, not that they're necessarily overpowered. Here's a bunch of additions to your model that hint towards it not being so simple:

    • If you're using soft point and hit a sniper first, you win the fight, at least as long as you keep hitting your consecutive shots and the RPM of your weapon isn't that low. Some good snipers can overcome the kickback of a single hit, but usually not consecutive hits.
    • If the sniper isn't scoped in when you face them, you will end up winning the fight, at least if you aren't garbage.
    • If the sniper misses you once, you win the fight. Most people in this game don't wiggle (consecutive A-D tapping while in ADS and fighting someone), but it helps a great deal against snipers because it's significantly harder to hit someone who's wiggling and knows his movement tech.
    • If the sniper tags you because they hit the hand in front of your body, you win the fight.
    • At least without cover, the sniper doesn't connect as well as the other weapons, so if multiple people rush the sniper it's easy to overpower them.

    Personally, I play both the DSR and assault rifles in non-SnD modes, and on maps that aren't titan or airport, when playing the DSR, I feel like I need to try significantly harder to play as good as if I would use an AR, since I actually need to preaim every angle, need to be way more careful with my movements and my aim has to be better overall to perform. Most of the non-SnD modes are pretty chaotic, so it's very easy to get caught offguard with the sniper, which wouldn't be as much of an issue with the AR.

    However, in SnD it's usually the norm to preaim every angle and not to get caught off guard, so I can see them being overpowered there, as most of the above don't apply as much in SnD. Because of the more limited angles aiming isn't as much of a deal either.


    So let's talk about possible solutions.

    • If you nerf the damage of the sniper to not oneshot anymore, you might as well remove it from the game. Ironsight is a fast game, hitting body shots can already be a bit tricky against good opponents, consistently hitting headshots would be impossible, especially with you suffering from kickback if you take too long. Honestly, if that was to happen, I'd quit Ironsight. The game already lacks variety in gameplay, and I don't find playing AR all the time particularly exciting, especially since it's easier to do well with.
    • Increasing the ADS time won't help with most of the bullet points above, and especially not in SnD. I think it would result in the sniper being much less fun to play, but I doubt that it would become weaker.

    Now to my proposed solution. I think the biggest issue is in fact what you mentioned: Snipers still connect too well, especially in SnD. To fix this, you could nerf the RPM of the gun. This way to balance snipers was taken in CoD4 Promod, and it worked. Nerfing the RPM means that you can still hit single shots well, but if you ever get rushed by multiple people, miss, tag, whatever, you guaranteedly lose. In SnD, additionally limiting the amount of players that are allowed to play sniper to 1 is also helpful to prevent certain ridiculous strats.

    However, if you nerf the RPM, it should be viable for the snipers to switch to their secondary, so you'd need to fix and buff those as well, either by adding buffering, decreasing recoil or increasing range.


    Disregarding balance, there's also a few things that could be fixed to make the sniper more fun and more consistent to play. These may affect the balance a tiny bit, but it shouldn't be super significant:

    • Fixing the initial scope sway (as described in Guide to Micro Mechanics).
    • Fixing the bug where you can't sprint immediately after shooting and unscoping and need to wait for the reload animation to finish. Not sure what causes this, yet.
    • When shooting somebody's hand in front of the torso, the bullet should penetrate the hand and also hit the torso, killing the enemy instead of just tagging because it hit the hand first (Demo: https://youtu.be/KZ1rlQIClyI). This would make sniper hits feel less random.


    EDIT: Also, one last thing: Many people fall for the fallacy that because they died in a single shot, the sniper is overpowered. Not saying you do, just that I see it often. I understand that getting killed by a sniper can be frustrating because it feels like you can't do anything, but that doesn't mean that the gun is overpowered. In fact, other guns kind of suffer from the same issue because of the heavy kickback - if you get shot first and your opponent is hitting his shots, you'll usually die, no matter the situation.

    I think I even do worse on average with the sniper than with the assault rifle in non-SnD modes.


    Not to mention the majority of snipers camp, waiting for someone to appear and get an easy kill... well, at least it feels good when we get them from behind ^^

    Assuming you actually mean "camping", and not just "holding an angle for a short time": This is true, but I've seen people complain about snipers playing aggressively as well. The people that camp aren't usually that good anyways.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by sqroot ().

  • For me, the problem of balancing snipers is to decrease their effectiveness at close range without making them completely ineffective at range.


    The only way I can think of to achieve that is to make them wildly inaccurate while unscoped and increase the length of the scoping action to prevent quick scoping.

    They are already terribly inaccurate while unscoped. It's basically utterly pointless to ever try to noscope. I only use it when I'm gonna switch to my secondary anyways because it doesn't cost anything.

    As for quickscoping, I don't think that's the issue, as described in my post above - you shouldn't lose a fight where you meet a sniper and the sniper isn't scoped in yet. Quickscoping is fancy to pubstomp people or to kill people that don't see you, but it's not really all that effective against good people in an SnD-ish environment.

  • Snipers were already nerfed where now they ads slower and effect of the straight pull attachment was halved. Nerfing any more would be impractical.

    The only way I can think of to achieve that is to make them wildly inaccurate while unscoped and increase the length of the scoping action to prevent quick scoping.

    Tbh this would not be a good idea. The pace of the game promotes quickscoping at many instances and in some cases, it is the only option.

    The reason why I say this is due to pure map design. There are too many props in most maps giving a lot of corner battles. When a sniper comes to the corner, quickscoping is the better option. Besides, if they can quickscope, they are pretty skilled to deserve that kill.


    A better option would be to buff all other weapons, specially those that needs buffing, like the AK12.

  • When a sniper comes to the corner, quickscoping is the better option.

    I don't know about this, I prescope and walk around corners while scoped in or at least scope in while walking around the corner so that I'm fully scoped in when I pass the corner. I also sometimes quickscope in these instances, but I avoid it when I'm playing against good people, because I know that they will use the time it takes to scope in well.

  • "Assuming you actually mean "camping", and not just "holding an angle for a short time": This is true, but I've seen people complain about snipers playing aggressively as well."


    I'd put myself in that latter group, not that I actually complain much about anything. If you're designing short, medium and long range weapons then it's not great balance if the longest range weapon is also extremely viable at short range.


    You don't have to spend much time looking at the 'best of ironsight' event vids to see just how viable at close range the sniper rifles are.

  • Maybe the snipers don't need to be nerfed (that could make them useless), but others weapons buffed. However, by "buffed" I don't mean improve their stats, but make them kill with ONE headshot. That would make things more balanced, especially in close encounters:


    Sniper can kill with one shot to the body but has to scope

    Other weapons kill with one shot to the head but... you gotta hit the head


    Looks like a fair fight to me.

  • "Assuming you actually mean "camping", and not just "holding an angle for a short time": This is true, but I've seen people complain about snipers playing aggressively as well."


    I'd put myself in that latter group, not that I actually complain much about anything. If you're designing short, medium and long range weapons then it's not great balance if the longest range weapon is also extremely viable at short range.


    You don't have to spend much time looking at the 'best of ironsight' event vids to see just how viable at close range the sniper rifles are.

    The thing is, at close range you at least have a chance to kill the sniper. At longe range... pff, not a single chance (sometimes you don't even see them).

    So, in my case, I got nothing against "agressive snipers".

  • Snipers should be easier to deal with at close range. They're long ranged weapons designed for camping choke points and long sight lines.


    If you find them easy to deal with at short range and difficult at long range then they're working as intended.

  • ARs, LMGs and SMGs kill with one headshot? hell no, specially in a game with a gameplay like this, if it was a CSlike game, for sure I'd be a great addiction, but, it's a cod type gameplay, most automatic weapons have a strangely accurate hipfire, making headshots kill in one shot would only make the gun'n'run feels horrible. Most people don't even try to aim while using a famas, tar, or literally any SMG, as well a mg3 with a laser, making it kill in just one hs would be just a festival of bs.


    For me, snipers are really balanced, dsr is strong, but slow, blaser is faster but also a hitmarker machine, seems like you guys forget that snipers aren't the type of gun that can let you miss your shots like an AR, with a sniper every bullet counts and missing one just makes your TTK gigantic. But there's one thing I'd for sure love to be nerfed, and that is the bolt cancel, which is when you shot and swich weapons, that makes your sniper reset the bolt letting it be able to shot again for almost half the time of a normal bolt action. It'd be great if they remove this kind of bs, that makes bolt action snipers shoot almost instantly after a previous shot.

  • Yeah, imo the "bolt cancel" is a very dirty exploit, devs should fix this asap. As for the headshots, well, for me the real bs is having to put 3 bullets in someone's head to kill him... it doesn't even matter if you shoot the head or body. Those who have the skill (or luck, whatever) to hit the head shouldn't be rewarded?


    And about the hipfire, I wouldn't mind if it was a bit nerfed.

  • Wow, were lifter interesting points, and that's why I like forums: D



    This would be an interesting way out, but I do not think it would solve the problem, the good sniper will continue to kill you closely as it will always be in scope when you arrive.




    1 - "if I hit the first shot" well, for this we have to assume that I got to where the sniper is, without taking into consideration that I will have to go through 7 other players, drones that reveal my position, land mines that snipers leave, not die behind the back, and lucky enough to get in the sniper and he is not looked at where I'm coming from knowing that I come from there. and even then the netcode has to "help" me because when it helps the enemy die fast, when I can not spend 1 clip that will not work.


    2 - Often "dancing" in front of the sniper with A and D does not work, I get tired of seeing snipers firing at 1 meter or 2 from the enemy's body and killing anyway.


    3 - Most snipers take a place and stay there ad-eternum, knowing where they are at all help, as appearing ahead to hit a grenade is suicide, and try to get them back ... go back to number 1 I wrote.


    4 - on the nerf in the RPM, I do not think it would help, the sniper would still overpowered killing from near or far with 1 shooting apernas, we hardly see snipers doing double or triple kill, who will say quadra kill, the sniper depends on the players appear in the field of view will kill 1 to 1, RPM certainly is not the problem.


    5 - I do not think also that buff secondary weapons can help in some way, they kill as fast as a rifle on many occasions, 3 shots of a desert, or 1 HS


    6 - To shoot in the hand, should cross, be sniper, SMG, AR, or whatever, it is ridiculous to lose an HS for example by hitting the hand that is in front, or to stop giving greater damage by the hand being in front , serves almost like a bulletproof vest.


    7 - If the opponent starts hitting the shots you will die, that is not certain, if your move is good, you can kill it before, or lower behind something, also varies the distance and the weapon that the subject is, besides kick the weapon, end the clip of ammunition ... many variables that can make someone with a weapon other than a sniper shoot first and not kill you.




    The Sniper must be kind of forced to switch to a secondary weapon when he is close, if the snipers still attempt the quickscope, the game is failing.



    I agree that some weapons need buffing, clearly there is too much delay to kill becoming unfeasible.


    I also think it horrible this mechanic of not killing with 1 headshot, I always hated it, but I have to agree that ironsight would break the game a little, on the other hand, reducing the amount of headshots needed for 2 would be welcome.



    The difficulty has to vary according to distance, in that you are right, the problem is that currently this balance is still hanging to the side of the sniper It is impossible to kill a minimally good sniper in long range, but it is not impossible for the sniper to kill any other closely, depending on the location, yet the advantage is the sniper.



    1 - We agreed that killing with 1 headshot would not be beneficial to the game.


    2 - I also agree that AR's has an overpowered Hipfire, SMG's even makes sense, AR's do not.


    3 - I do not think snipers are balanced in the game, but this is the subject of the topic :v


    4 - I agree that Bolt cancel is the most ridiculous thing in the history of FPS, the old CS's came with it and other games copied, does not make the slightest sense and only serves to circumvent an action of the game, pure exploit!



    Finally, from everything I read here so far, I think it would make sense if the sniper's damage drop worked the other way around, SMG's, AR's and LMG's drop the damage by distance, snipers could have a smaller damage the closer , then it would make sense for the class to be good for long distance, and bad for close. what do you think? ?(

  • Even though I hate snipers, making a weapon less powerful at close range is kinda weird :S


    I'd say a little longer scope time is a better solution, thus forcing snipers to use their secondary in "surprise" situations. About the bolt cancel, let's not forget macros make it even easier, and no anticheat can detect this kind of thing (so a lot of ppl use it... mainly "pro" players).

  • Even though I hate snipers, making a weapon less powerful at close range is kinda weird :S


    I'd say a little longer scope time is a better solution, thus forcing snipers to use their secondary in "surprise" situations. About the bolt cancel, let's not forget macros make it even easier, and no anticheat can detect this kind of thing (so a lot of ppl use it... mainly "pro" players).


    Really the macro is another subject, for me the anticheat should have the whole macro program, be razer, be that universal and especially the bloody ones, but it has much more behind, partnerships and many "comradeships"


    I came to play in an amateur league on warface, and in a few days I discovered that everyone was playing with Bloody macro, these are our "pros", but I'm going to open a topic talking about it soon;)

  • To start this off: I'd really encourage anyone to try playing the sniper at close range for a while before making hypothetical statements.

    A quick tl;dr: I don't see a solution to this that doesn't make the sniper completely useless. Nerfing the RPM is the only thing I can see that is possible at all, and it "only" makes it easier for teams to rush snipers, keeps the sniper from connecting and increases the risk associated with the weapon. Many of you seem to disagree with the idea of a high risk, high reward, low RPM, high damage weapon in its entirety. I don't think that limiting a gun class to long range encounters exclusively is sensible on the maps in Ironsight either, considering that the concept is even dubious at best even in Battlefield (cf. BF1 vs BFBC2).


    I'd put myself in that latter group, not that I actually complain much about anything. If you're designing short, medium and long range weapons then it's not great balance if the longest range weapon is also extremely viable at short range.


    You don't have to spend much time looking at the 'best of ironsight' event vids to see just how viable at close range the sniper rifles are.

    I don't think the "best of ironsight" clips are a particularly good example, after all seekax and me posted clips of octakills, seekax' clip even being about him countersniping a bunch of snipers at midrange.

    The sniper isn't super viable at short range if you don't take ages to start shooting at the sniper. Try hitting someone at close range who's strafing and wiggling while you're suffering from kickback and we'll see. Wasn't I playing against you and RawSauz yesterday? You're usually pretty easy to hit, while RawSauz is very hard to hit, which is why I lost most fights against him, even occasionally at range.

    The opposite works as well; when you're using soft point it's pretty easy to counter-snipe snipers on airport with an AUG or a Scar and win the encounter because of kickback.

    I'll agree that it's a bit easy to hold angles with the sniper against multiple people because of the high RPM, but I won't agree that the sniper is somehow supposed to be as strong as the assault rifle in general close range encounters because it oneshots people and you can quickscope if you're lucky enough and your opponent doesn't shoot you.


    Oneshot headshots are a bad idea because they result in way more randomness in encounters. The faster the game, the less sense it makes to have a huge headshot multiplier.


    The thing is, at close range you at least have a chance to kill the sniper. At longe range... pff, not a single chance (sometimes you don't even see them).

    So, in my case, I got nothing against "agressive snipers".

    With soft point and a Scar or an AUG you can stand a chance at range against snipers. Killing someone with smart peeking will obviously still be easier with the sniper, but that's just the nature of the gun class, there's nothing you can or should do to fix it except for maybe making it harder to connect. At least I don't see a way to fix it without making the class useless.


    But there's one thing I'd for sure love to be nerfed, and that is the bolt cancel, which is when you shot and swich weapons, that makes your sniper reset the bolt letting it be able to shot again for almost half the time of a normal bolt action. It'd be great if they remove this kind of bs, that makes bolt action snipers shoot almost instantly after a previous shot.

    The bolt cancel does not give you a huge advantage, at least with the DSR. Gnomedalf made a video about it a while back when straight pull was still stronger. In fact, it's so insignificant that I have stopped quickswitching where possible because it's easier to see when your weapon is ready with the bolt animation and sound.


    Yeah, imo the "bolt cancel" is a very dirty exploit, devs should fix this asap. As for the headshots, well, for me the real bs is having to put 3 bullets in someone's head to kill him... it doesn't even matter if you shoot the head or body. Those who have the skill (or luck, whatever) to hit the head shouldn't be rewarded?


    And about the hipfire, I wouldn't mind if it was a bit nerfed.

    That's the issue, though. Hitting headshots in Ironsight involves a lot of luck, especially with this much kickback, and making headshots a oneshot would add way more TTK variation, which isn't desirable. As for bolt cancelling: See above.

    That being said, I'd love it if quickswitching cancelled even more animations, for instance reloads! There's so many clunky animations in this game that you can't cancel, it's a shame. In CoD4, quickswitching at the end of the reload shortened the reload time. I don't know what it was about it, but it just felt right. There were even a bunch of tricks you could do to get different animations when quickswitching, resulting in pretty crisp alternative animations (I'd show you some clips but it's probably hard to judge for someone who didn't play the game). Sadly, the animations in Ironsight are pretty clunky as well.



    Jokernorte

    >well, for this we have to assume that I got to where the sniper is

    If the sniper is outranging you because of smart positioning then he should win the fight, there's nothing wrong with that. There's not that many locations in the current map pool where snipers can actually outrange you properly, and flanking those is usually easy.


    >Often "dancing" in front of the sniper with A and D does not work

    I was playing a match just yesterday where I was missing a bunch of shots against a few very good players because of good movement. Maybe my aim is just bad, but I'm pretty sure that it had a good impact on me missing them.


    >Most snipers take a place and stay there ad-eternum

    I've honestly never seen a single good sniper who does that or a sniper that was successful with it, it's usually plebs.


    >on the nerf in the RPM, I do not think it would help, the sniper would still overpowered killing from near or far with 1 shooting apernas, we hardly see snipers doing double or triple kill, who will say quadra kill, the sniper depends on the players appear in the field of view will kill 1 to 1, RPM certainly is not the problem.

    If you think that the sniper connecting too quickly isn't the issue then you fundamentally disagree with the concept of a high risk, high reward, low RPM, high damage weapon like the sniper and you might as well have it removed. I don't see any other solution to "fix" this, and I disagree that it is an issue in the first place. Feel free to prove me wrong by suggesting a sensible solution, though.


    >I do not think also that buff secondary weapons can help in some way, they kill as fast as a rifle on many occasions, 3 shots of a desert, or 1 HS

    Again, damage is not the only relevant factor when considering the balance of weapons. All the secondaries cap out pretty early, and tapping to not run into buffering issues feels terrible. Recoil is high, damage drop off is high, most people don't use them in any way other than hipfire spam - the secondaries are pretty terrible compared to other FPS games.


    >If the opponent starts hitting the shots you will die, that is not certain

    I didn't claim it is certain. In fact, I didn't claim the equivalent for any of my points. For this point in particular, I was assuming a position without cover, like on airport. As for single kills induced by smart peeking, I don't know how you're gonna fix that without effectively removing the sniper class entirely.


    >The Sniper must be kind of forced to switch to a secondary weapon when he is close, if the snipers still attempt the quickscope, the game is failing.

    I don't see anything wrong with a sniper walking around a corner while scoped in and killing someone who is close while crossing the corner. I don't think this is a failure of the game at all.


    >The difficulty has to vary according to distance, in that you are right, the problem is that currently this balance is still hanging to the side of the sniper It is impossible to kill a minimally good sniper in long range, but it is not impossible for the sniper to kill any other closely, depending on the location, yet the advantage is the sniper.

    As mentioned above, I don't think fighting snipers is as difficult as you make it out to be (keywords: AUG, Scar, Soft Point). Also, I think reducing the entire matter of balance in Ironsight to 1v1 situations is a bit harsh - the whole point of a sniper is to be good at picking off single people for a high risk.


    >I agree that Bolt cancel is the most ridiculous thing in the history of FPS, the old CS's came with it and other games copied, does not make the slightest sense and only serves to circumvent an action of the game, pure exploit!

    "It doesn't make the slightest sense" is a terrible argument. Why is it bad for gameplay? Please don't reply with something mentioning "realism", that's not answering the question.


    >Finally, from everything I read here so far, I think it would make sense if the sniper's damage drop worked the other way around

    New battlefield games have this and it's unintuitive and feels terrible to play with, even with maps as huge as battlefield has. There's very little "super long range" sections on maps in Ironsight, and imho you might as well remove the snipers instead, because you'd be limiting snipers to the two small corridors on every map where you'd actually be able to oneshot.



    EDIT: I think I might have missunderstood what you guys mean with bolt cancel. If you don't just mean quickswitching after a shot, then ignore the stuff about bolt cancelling.

  • "Wasn't I playing against you and RawSauz yesterday? You're usually pretty easy to hit, while RawSauz is very hard to hit, which is why I lost most fights against him, even occasionally at range."


    Not yesterday as I wasn't on, but pretty sure I will have played against you with Sauz at some point. To be fair, Sauz is about 10 times the player I am, as are both you and Seekax.

  • cristianomtd

    >I'd say a little longer scope time is a better solution, thus forcing snipers to use their secondary in "surprise" situations.

    I feel like this is already the case. Against decent players, I always need to switch to my secondary at close range.


    Jokernorte

    >Really the macro is another subject, for me the anticheat should have the whole macro program, be razer, be that universal and especially the bloody ones, but it has much more behind, partnerships and many "comradeships"

    This is a hard issue, because it's not necessarily possible for anticheats to detect software that is running as a driver as a cheat. When you've got a signed driver, the whole issue of anticheat gets kind of nasty. Some mice don't even run the macros off a driver, but off a built-in microchip in the mouse, and in that case it's basically impossible to detect macros except for a very shaky runtime analysis that tries to judge whether an input is "too deterministic".


    EDIT: Also to add: I don't disagree with everything you guys posted. The things I don't quote are either things that I already talked about or things I agree with, so take that confirmation implicitly. Even some of the things I quote I might agree with in some ways, just not in their entirety (or I just want to add something to the statement you made).

    The post was edited 1 time, last by sqroot ().

  • "Wasn't I playing against you and RawSauz yesterday? You're usually pretty easy to hit, while RawSauz is very hard to hit, which is why I lost most fights against him, even occasionally at range."


    Not yesterday as I wasn't on, but pretty sure I will have played against you with Sauz at some point. To be fair, Sauz is about 10 times the player I am, as are both you and Seekax.

    Just to clarify if it came off wrong: I think overall you're a very good player, and dodging less than RawSauz doesn't mean much, since he's probably better at dodging than me or most other people as well. Just wanted to make a point that there are people in this game that I find extremely hard to hit with a sniper at close range.