Assault Rifle Balancing

  • As someone who has put 65 hours into the game, I have noticed there are a number of guns which require some balancing changes. I'm not going to go into the snipers as everyone knows they are a mess. I also don't care about the LMGs and SMGs.


    ARs requiring buff:


    AK-12: This gun is essentially just a weaker version of the AK-47 with basically no advantages other than a slightly faster reload.

    - A ROF increase should fix this gun


    SA58 OSW: This one used to be okay. However, since the chest hit-box size decrease, it has become pretty much worthless. As the gun I have spent nearly all my play time using, I have a pretty good feeling for what changes could be made.

    Essential Changes:

    - Mag size increase. The SA58, when compared to the AK-47, only has an advantage in its ability to 3-shot to the chest. However, it also only carries a 2/3 of the AK's ammo making it rather difficult to finish off more than one enemy. Because it has so much horizontal recoil and obstructive irons, an optic and muzzle brake are essential, leaving no room for an extended mag anyway. Upping the base capacity to 25/75 (or 30/90 for realism as no 25 round FAL mags exist) would make this gun much more playable.


    M39 & HK417: Making these guns automatic (not having to click for every shot) would make it easier for some people to use and make them more accessible to more players while not actually changing stats.


    AUG A3: This one is okay but could use a slight ROF increase to make it more useful against the likes of the AK-47 or M4 ACC-M.

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    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

    The post was edited 3 times, last by SpartanMish ().

    • An ROF increase might help the Ak12. A possible alternative is to increase the range, making it a viable long range gun.
    • A 30/90 SA58 might be a bit too strong, 25/75 might be ok.
    • What's "turn speed"? Not sure what you mean here.
    • Making the M39 or the HK417 automatic would make them overpowered. This game does not have buffering, i.e. when tapping the gun, you need to hit at a rate that is close to the RPM to reach the maximum fire rate. If you exceed it, the gun will fire more slowly. With auto-fire, this mechanic would cease to exist, making the semi-autos way more viable. I don't think this is a good idea. That being said: The HK417 recoil is too random to be consistently controlled with the hair trigger, making it very annoying to use. This could be fixed. For the M39, the damage is fairly inconsistent, which is often the deciding factor in fights. This could also be fixed.
    • I think the AUG is fine as it is. It has its spot as the only long-range AR that you can easily auto-fire and still control, as opposed to the AK47. As a result of this, multiple good players exclusively use the AUG on long range maps.
    • An ROF increase might help the Ak12. A possible alternative is to increase the range, making it a viable long range gun.
    • A 30/90 SA58 might be a bit too strong, 25/75 might be ok.
    • What's "turn speed"? Not sure what you mean here.
    • Making the M39 or the HK417 automatic would make them overpowered. This game does not have buffering, i.e. when tapping the gun, you need to hit at a rate that is close to the RPM to reach the maximum fire rate. If you exceed it, the gun will fire more slowly. With auto-fire, this mechanic would cease to exist, making the semi-autos way more viable. I don't think this is a good idea. That being said: The HK417 recoil is too random to be consistently controlled with the hair trigger, making it very annoying to use. This could be fixed. For the M39, the damage is fairly inconsistent, which is often the deciding factor in fights. This could also be fixed.
    • I think the AUG is fine as it is. It has its spot as the only long-range AR that you can easily auto-fire and still control, as opposed to the AK47. As a result of this, multiple good players exclusively use the AUG on long range maps.

    he means the sensitivity lol

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  • AK-12 definately needs a buff but I'm pretty confident the other guns are fine ESPECIALLY the Aug A3.

    AK-12: Just a weaker AK-47 faster fire rate and better range would make it more versatile though most would still just use the 47.

    SA58: Pretty much feels like a K2C but kills faster if you know where to hit. Doesn't really need buffs.

    EMR and HK: Borth are perfectly fine. Easy to kill with and reliant on click speed/tempo. Doesn't really need buffs.

    Aug A3: Has good medium/long range damage, a clip size of 30 and easy control. One of the best AR's in the game. DEFINITELY doesn't need a buff.


    The guns that really need changing are most likely the MSBS 556B, Tar-21, and other guns that get outclassed by almost every other AR and at close range almost any SMG. But that issue is based off the base game in which a bigger damage drop off for SMG's would only fix the balancing.

  • Haven't played much with MSBS but yeah.

    • An ROF increase might help the Ak12. A possible alternative is to increase the range, making it a viable long range gun.
    • A 30/90 SA58 might be a bit too strong, 25/75 might be ok.
    • What's "turn speed"? Not sure what you mean here.
    • Making the M39 or the HK417 automatic would make them overpowered. This game does not have buffering, i.e. when tapping the gun, you need to hit at a rate that is close to the RPM to reach the maximum fire rate. If you exceed it, the gun will fire more slowly. With auto-fire, this mechanic would cease to exist, making the semi-autos way more viable. I don't think this is a good idea. That being said: The HK417 recoil is too random to be consistently controlled with the hair trigger, making it very annoying to use. This could be fixed. For the M39, the damage is fairly inconsistent, which is often the deciding factor in fights. This could also be fixed.
    • I think the AUG is fine as it is. It has its spot as the only long-range AR that you can easily auto-fire and still control, as opposed to the AK47. As a result of this, multiple good players exclusively use the AUG on long range maps.

    By turn speed I mean basically the sensitivity tied to weight. The LMGs, for example, feel heavier when looking around, accelerating/decelerating as you look around. It has nothing to do with mouse sensitivity or mouse accel.

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    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

  • By turn speed I mean basically the sensitivity tied to weight. The LMGs, for example, feel heavier when looking around, accelerating/decelerating as you look around. It has nothing to do with mouse sensitivity or mouse accel.

    I still have no clue what you mean.

  • By turn speed I mean basically the sensitivity tied to weight. The LMGs, for example, feel heavier when looking around, accelerating/decelerating as you look around. It has nothing to do with mouse sensitivity or mouse accel.

    I still have no clue what you mean.

    Momentum of the gun?


    Responsiveness to the movement of the mouse?


    idk it's difficult to explain

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    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJxZkfgUW_D4FFlEcjxczp7KSf0fVqWx9NY5Q11XKIUKjKBcqQ0g

    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

  • I don't think what you mean exists. At least not with keyboard and mouse.

    When you're hipfiring, your crosshair is always centered in the middle of the screen. When you turn your character, it stays that way, the gun has no effect on that.

    When you're adsing, your ADS is always centered in the middle of the screen. When you turn your character, it stays that way, the gun has no effect on that.

    So I can't possibly understand what you mean; there's no "gun momentum" that affects gameplay, no "responsiveness to the movement of the mouse" that is dictated by the weapon, no acceleration/deacceleration, etc.

    I can only think of two things that you might mean:

    • The animation of the gun when turning around while not in ADS might look slower than in other guns, although I have never noticed this, am not sure if it exists, and it has certainly no effect on gameplay.
    • Using a sight with a different zoom level might mean that you need to drag your mouse further to travel the same projected distance, although this is dependent on the sight, and not the gun.
  • Hi, PotetasNecis here,


    I just wanted to raise awareness of my spreadsheet, where I did alot of statistics on all weapons currently in the game. I tried to make it a detailed and accurate as possible. Ofc there is always stuff I could add, but that will come over time.


    Weapon Analysis by PotestasNecis


    Back to topic:
    The AUG is fine. I played with it myself, and I cant say it better than sqroot.
    SA OSW is still the fastest gun to kill, if you leave the one-shot guns out of the equasion.

    AK-12 IS the WORST gun out of all, getting outclassed by basicly everything. Sub par range compared with an absurdly low rof... you get the point.


    As for balancing in general:
    I would have some more points to make, since I tested so much weapons. But it seems that nobody actually cares. I mean the AR57 got its hs-multiplyer more in line with the rest (1.5 instead of 1.8). AN is still the best SMG and encourages scripting. MSBS outclasses 3 or 4 weapons based on numbers directly. Smgs could be made more distinct, right now there is almost no difference between 3 or 4 smgs.


    But hey, who am i to judge? The personal kills etc. arent updating, theres still the grenade throw bug i need to record and send in, escort drone still kills you from dunno, but doesnt shoot when an enemy stands in front of you, there are glitchspots in the maps...

    (mendatory tags: Gamga to piß him off, Worgoroth   the_Director bc i think the do stuff like this, Deadpool just to say hi: Hi ^^)

  • If you compare SMG to LMG you might notice one "feels" heavier than the other. It's really subtle and I don't think optics are a factor as it's mostly noticeable when out of ADS (hipfire). Regardless, it's pretty much negligible.

    I have seen your spreadsheet and refer to it frequently. It is pretty awesome!


    On paper, the SA58 is definitely the best AR. However, recoil (especially regarding the horizontal/vertical difference) is a factor that cannot really be accounted for. The SA58 has a significant horizontal recoil which makes it harder to land shots, especially at range. Overall it's pretty average, disregarding mag capacity.


    Since I posted this I have unlocked every weapon in game and played with other weapons a lot more (especially the TAR21, SCAR and MG3) . I definitely agree the SMGs lack distinction. The only one that stands out is the AR57 because everyone either loves or hates it.


    Also, viewing statistics, the number of times I hit the chest in a match is usually 51% and the chest hitbox size hasn't affected that.



    The TAR-21's lack of popularity befuddles me.

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    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

  • The only one that stands out is the AR57 because everyone either loves or hates it.

    Am I the only one that just finds the 57 to be... meh?


    Now that I've completed all of the SMG kill achievements, I've decided to go back and try to raise up the KDA on those that were low. First on that list was the AR57.. It's actually my worst performing SMG.

  • They feel heavier because of the run speed and the time it takes to ADS. There's nothing else. There's no acceleration or deacceleration or whatever, everything moves instantly according to your mouse movements. At this point I think that you're imagining things.


    As for the SA58 being the strongest gun "on paper", keep in mind that PotestasNecis' spreadsheet abstracts a lot of important details that also matter "on paper" other than recoil, for instance the DPS on upper and lower torso/legs/arms, only mentioning the damage multipliers, or other relevant things like the hipfire spray.

    The SA58 has super inconsistent TTK if you hit anything but the upper torso, bumping you up to four shots required to kill (MASSIVELY increasing the TTK) if you hit the lower torso only once. This is especially devestating because of the low magsize.

    (The chest hitbox is subdivided into upper and lower torso!)


    As for the Tar21: Most people avoid the <28 dmg ARs because they've often got low range (except for the MSBS), mediocre RPM (except for the FAMAS) and very bad mindmg, meaning that you won't be able to use your maximum DPS potential very quickly, dropping to utterly unusable DPS at range. The Tar21 especially also has a terrible headshot multiplier.

    There's a case to be made for the MSBS, which is very good at long range, or the FAMAS, which is very good at close range, but the Tar21 is kind of outclassed in every way by some of the 30dmg ARs (cf. K2C).


    The only one that stands out is the AR57 because everyone either loves or hates it.

    Am I the only one that just finds the 57 to be... meh?


    Now that I've completed all of the SMG kill achievements, I've decided to go back and try to raise up the KDA on those that were low. First on that list was the AR57.. It's actually my worst performing SMG.

    The AR57 was relatively stronger before the patch that buffed the P90 and the vector. Granted, I don't really like any of the SMGs. The P90 is stronger for spray 'n pray and the MP5 is stronger for ADS centric gameplay; I suppose the AR57 is kind of a middle ground, although the recoil is pretty annoying and you'll lose against the P90 in most cases.

  • As for the SA58 being the strongest gun "on paper", keep in mind that PotestasNecis' spreadsheet abstracts a lot of important details that also matter "on paper" other than recoil, for instance the DPS on upper and lower torso/legs/arms, only mentioning the damage multipliers, or other relevant things like the hipfire spray.

    The SA58 has super inconsistent TTK if you hit anything but the upper torso, bumping you up to four shots required to kill (MASSIVELY increasing the TTK) if you hit the lower torso only once. This is especially devestating because of the low magsize.

    (The chest hitbox is subdivided into upper and lower torso!)


    I understand that. Because they also increased the hitbox size for the stomach and decreased the chest box the SA58 basically is just a 4-shot gun with a really small magazine.


    They feel heavier because of the run speed and the time it takes to ADS. There's nothing else. There's no acceleration or deacceleration or whatever, everything moves instantly according to your mouse movements. At this point I think that you're imagining things.


    Pretty sure there's a difference and that ADS time/run speed are not connected.


    For the TAR-21, the headshot multiplier would explain why no one likes it.

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    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJxZkfgUW_D4FFlEcjxczp7KSf0fVqWx9NY5Q11XKIUKjKBcqQ0g

    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

  • I didn't claim that run speed and ADS time are connected. As long as you don't explain what causes the different "weight" feeling, I'll mark it off as placebo, because I still have absolutely no clue what you mean.

  • Never mind. I haven't used the SA58 for quite a while but I loaded up with it again and directly compared it to the TAR-21. Absolutely no difference. Where did I get the outrageous notion from? Bad graphics settings. Apparently, the culprit here was trying to run the game at higher settings than is ideal for my spud of a PC. I turned off some of the video settings a little while back which solved a lot of frame rate/micro-stuttering issues. Consequently, it also eliminated this little discrepancy.

    Boy, do I feel stupid.


    Sorry for wasting your time with my conspiracy theories lol

    bar.jpg

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJxZkfgUW_D4FFlEcjxczp7KSf0fVqWx9NY5Q11XKIUKjKBcqQ0g

    The only reason Patton called the M1 Garand the "greatest implement of battle ever devised" is because he never met the FN FAL.

    #BuffAK12

  • I didn't claim that run speed and ADS time are connected. As long as you don't explain what causes the different "weight" feeling, I'll mark it off as placebo, because I still have absolutely no clue what you mean.

    Never mind. I haven't used the SA58 for quite a while but I loaded up with it again and directly compared it to the TAR-21. Absolutely no difference. Where did I get the outrageous notion from? Bad graphics settings. Apparently, the culprit here was trying to run the game at higher settings than is ideal for my spud of a PC. I turned off some of the video settings a little while back which solved a lot of frame rate/micro-stuttering issues. Consequently, it also eliminated this little discrepancy.

    Boy, do I feel stupid.


    Sorry for wasting your time with my conspiracy theories lol

    No worries. It would have been very exciting had you found some kind of weapon parameter I haven't noticed yet, which is why I kept asking.